Farming Forum UK

A forum for farmers and country-folk worldwide.
It is currently Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:52 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:05 pm
Posts: 10226
Location: The Zone
Probably one for Tel,

Hows does P and K work its way through the soil in minimum tillage situations?

_________________
keep honking, I'm reloading


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:21 pm
Posts: 23956
Same way as the roots.

_________________
Lovely, lovely, lovely....hahahahaha


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:50 pm
Posts: 11523
Location: Littlehay
The Pretender wrote:
Probably one for Tel,

Hows does P and K work its way through the soil in minimum tillage situations?



'Down' springs to mind........................... 8)

_________________
Not good on anatomy, but I know I'm an arsehole


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:53 pm
Posts: 3967
Location: Location: Location:
Worms?

Image



.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:50 pm
Posts: 11523
Location: Littlehay
The Squire wrote:
Worms?

Image



.



Have you? Are they painful??

_________________
Not good on anatomy, but I know I'm an arsehole


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:33 pm
Posts: 3136
Location: E Herts
Gravity.

In the absence of any farmitological approach I chose a lucky guess.

Was I lucky?

_________________
Hold still, it's nearly in.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:18 am
Posts: 7598
Location: Schizophrenia-Just this side of the border
They don't. Fertilizer accumulation in the top 2-3 inches is a problem. Many are going to a banding application, where a deep band is knifed in.

_________________
Measure twice, cut once, curse, repeat.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:45 pm
Posts: 3113
Depends if you are talking min till like a solo sort of thing of no till as in direct drilling.

Min til does provide a bit of mixing of the stuff, but not huge amounts.
I should also mention that K like N will move through soil profile but a bit slower than N, I was told that N will move 12 inches for every inch of rain fall. K is a lot slower than that.

P is almost immobile in the soil lots of figures are quoted but most say well under half an inch per year.
Therefore surface applied P in a no till situation will stay on or close to the surface, a strip til or min til will mix maybe enough to keep it moving down wards.
Realistily if you are no till most people will be injecting any base Fert down the back of the drill leg to get it in the rooting zone.

There are alternatives, such as APP, this is a much more mobile form of P only sold in liquid form by Yara, with this it is possible to apply it to a growing crop in the spring, their trials which might be biased show significant yield increases from this method of P application. At the old job I brought 20-20-0 for all the wheat as the first N application this spring, I used it the year before, and where I did the yields were stupid, lowest was 12t/ha compared to 9 on the conventional fert fields.
But after all those thoughts, even spring applied TSP can show at least a half tonne boost to yield if applied in the spring over autumn/seedbed applications.

So there you go, either place it under the soil in the root zone, or feed the growing crop not the soil.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:50 pm
Posts: 11523
Location: Littlehay
Flintstone wrote:
Gravity.

In the absence of any farmitological approach I chose a lucky guess.

Was I lucky?



Cigar or coconut, sir???? :D

_________________
Not good on anatomy, but I know I'm an arsehole


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:33 pm
Posts: 3136
Location: E Herts
Coconut please.

Got a light?



Image

_________________
Hold still, it's nearly in.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:05 pm
Posts: 10226
Location: The Zone
Tel wrote:
Depends if you are talking min till like a solo sort of thing of no till as in direct drilling.

Min til does provide a bit of mixing of the stuff, but not huge amounts.
I should also mention that K like N will move through soil profile but a bit slower than N, I was told that N will move 12 inches for every inch of rain fall. K is a lot slower than that.

P is almost immobile in the soil lots of figures are quoted but most say well under half an inch per year.
Therefore surface applied P in a no till situation will stay on or close to the surface, a strip til or min til will mix maybe enough to keep it moving down wards.
Realistily if you are no till most people will be injecting any base Fert down the back of the drill leg to get it in the rooting zone.

There are alternatives, such as APP, this is a much more mobile form of P only sold in liquid form by Yara, with this it is possible to apply it to a growing crop in the spring, their trials which might be biased show significant yield increases from this method of P application. At the old job I brought 20-20-0 for all the wheat as the first N application this spring, I used it the year before, and where I did the yields were stupid, lowest was 12t/ha compared to 9 on the conventional fert fields.
But after all those thoughts, even spring applied TSP can show at least a half tonne boost to yield if applied in the spring over autumn/seedbed applications.

So there you go, either place it under the soil in the root zone, or feed the growing crop not the soil.


Does this apply to conventionally cultivated ground as well? What you are saying is to treat the soil just as a medium for growing the crop in and feed it its requirements rather than looking at P and K indexes? We put an N,P,K blend down some spouts on the potato planter. A few years ago, I think because of trash, we had the same blend sprayed on in liquid form and the land planted with the fert down the spout performed better, but I can't remember the stats.

I assume the down sides are more expensive drills, along with them being higher maintenance and it would slow the planting operation up too. Any unintended consequences? On a US channel there was talk about no till, which made me ask the question and nearly all were singing its praises, except one who went on to put down a long list of expensive chemical cocktails he now had to use to control problems he hadn't encountered before.

_________________
keep honking, I'm reloading


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:45 pm
Posts: 3113
According to all the research you cannot grow a 10 crop of wheat on index 0 soil, I have on many occassions.
There is a lot of debate about soil index and the methods used to measure them. I took part, helped out with a study that might be published in a year or so about this with the old job, shame I left because it was just getting interesting. I might still get some credit on the paper when it published.

Feed the crop not the soil, building the index is a mugs game and will break the bank with non organic material, organic material is different and I would always have as much as I could get hold of.

Placing an immobile substance in the rooting zone will always do a better job than expecting the roots to go hunting for it. But becareful as too much can be more toxic then not enough.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:07 pm
Posts: 7105
Out of interest we are one of the few to have a decent crop of maize ,,,,,,, I think mainly because we put DAP down the spout whearas the typical crop of maize grown on a dairy farm has about 65 tons per acre of shit ploughed under , in theory more than enough for the crops requirement ,,,,,,but not till the roots find it


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:45 pm
Posts: 3113
Pilgrim wrote:
Out of interest we are one of the few to have a decent crop of maize ,,,,,,, I think mainly because we put DAP down the spout whearas the typical crop of maize grown on a dairy farm has about 65 tons per acre of shit ploughed under , in theory more than enough for the crops requirement ,,,,,,but not till the roots find it

That would depend on soil type and chemistry. In my experience decent maize needs feeding and DAP at drilling is the best way, because it is available to crop straight away, whilst the FYM might need to be broken down a couple of stage to be useable by the plant.

Yara liquid P solutions are some of the best forms because they don't get locked up as much as say TSP


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:33 pm
Posts: 3136
Location: E Herts
What happens to these chemicals once they are in the soil? Some get taken up by plants but what if (say) no crops are grown after application? I imagine that over a number of years they'd leach out but would any sit there until a plant used them?

Which stay in the soil longer? 'Refined' chemicals or something like manure?

_________________
Hold still, it's nearly in.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic 
 [ 18 posts ] 
Post new topic  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group Color scheme by ColorizeIt!